Curse

Snow Bunny · May 21, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I find it minorly amusing that most of the reversions for PvE are completely insignificant.

Who runs shattering assault sins and the like in PvE?

5 seconds is pretty meaningless when most other energy management options are stronger. When these were nerfed way back when, the energy return per cast was hit, playing with the recharges doesn't matter much.

Necrosis exists.

Everyone uses enfeebling blood in PvE.

Energy issues stemming from an increase to the costs of communing spirits and a nerf to boon of creation killed this build. Rit lord doesn't matter much if you can't spam 25e spirits every few seconds.

Right, 1/4 second matters in PvE

Right, rez chains happen in the middle of combat in PvE

Recharge is still nerfed

5 seconds still sucks. This lasted 10ish seconds when everyone used it.

Yeah, that 1 second was the killer in PvE, not the duration or recharge.

Awesome, now my PvE spikes against moving targets are half a second faster.

Recharge is still nerfed.

PvP nerfs. They're just reverting stuff for PvE.

The Meth · May 21, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Actually, the only hype came from the community. Anet released a few paragraphs of info in the dev update. The community has spend page upon page in threads going ape.

Quote: "We will do this as sparingly as possible and start with very few skills. So that we don't confuse players, we intend to keep as many skills unchanged as we can."

For those saying "this is bigger than they said it would be" quote: "We've decided to release our next skill balance update simultaneously with these changes."

The quote "We will do this as sparingly as possible" implies that they wouldn't make useless trash changes just for the heck of it. 80% of these changes fall under that category. 2 of the changes are even worse, they are pretty much universally agreed on to be bad (ether renewal and shadow form). Seriously, infinite energy on any caster class and promoting invulnerability? Shameful.

snaek · May 21, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Something tells me little thought went into this buff.

do the skill balancers even play teh dam game?

jhu · May 21, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

If only there were some AoE enchant removal skill that works against shadow form.....

But who am I kidding - just use Ursan.

or even a signet, a mesmer signet...

but yeah, just use ursan, hehe

SerenitySilverstar · May 21, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

80% of these changes fall under that category.

Opinion, not fact.

Quote:

universally agreed on

Through anecdotal evidence.

Armchair critics abound - you have no clue what goes in to balancing skills. Instead of LOLing your head off at the Devs, read that recent article, especially where Izzy talks about how hard it is to balance the skills, not only against each other, but in all forms of play. This has been said over and over again in the life span of the game.

"Because I said so" is not a reason for them to insitute your opinions on what constitutes skill balance.

Giga_Gaia · May 21, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Man, so much negativity... at least they're trying, and I applaud the effort. As others have said, they've made the effort to at least un-nerf the ever popular LoD and WY! Since this is only the initial phase, let's not jump to conclusions yet shall we?

uby · May 22, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

as has been stated in the past, i hope this is an all-or-nothing effort. changing 25 skills in the game doesn't seem to be worth developer time, nor the added confusion for players.

if many or most of the skills have varied stats, then that would be something to always look for. by making it the rule and not the exception, it makes it easier to deal with. if it's the exception rather than the rule, then it seems to just become a burden to remember what skills are different.

most of these changes seem inconsequential, and some seem unbalanced. i hope that whoever is in charge of skill balancing seeks help from the community if they are overwhelmed -- we can provide a vast body of rapid and informed feedback that a handful of developers can't.

The Meth · May 22, 2008, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Opinion, not fact.

Fact: E-Denial is useless in PvE, and there are better ways for mesmers to gain energy then energy drain/tap
Fact: Discord is elite Necrosis, with an extra condition to meet.
Fact: Spirit Lord builds can't even use the elites increased recharge, spirits are far too expensive and too short lasting.
Fact: Incoming is an underpowered version of save yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Through anecdotal evidence.

Ether renewal + aura of restoration + any other long lasting enchant = every spell returns 12 energy and will heal the user for between 70 and 100 health. Every Single Cast. If you don't think that is an overpowered skill you have been playing too much ursan. In fact, if you are playing ursan there is a good chance you will see E/Mo healers in those groups. Heal Party costs them 3 energy. Ether Renewal was nerfed FOR A REASON.

Shadow form buff is just retarded, end of story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Armchair critics abound - you have no clue what goes in to balancing skills. Instead of LOLing your head off at the Devs, read that recent article, especially where Izzy talks about how hard it is to balance the skills, not only against each other, but in all forms of play. This has been said over and over again in the life span of the game.

"Because I said so" is not a reason for them to insitute your opinions on what constitutes skill balance.

Umm, the whole point of the PvE/PvP split was that it would be far easier to balance PvP and PvE separately. Point me to ANY one PvE area where some of these trash buffs have a positive effect. The good part of this update is strictly WY and LoD

Lhim · May 22, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Shadow Form has one use in PvE, farming.

They care for Farmers and buff all skills to heaven.

What did I actually expect from a balancer that basically said pve is for idiots and that people like imba skills.

My thoughts exactly.

SerenitySilverstar · May 22, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

A Fact is: The sky is blue
An Opinion is: E-denial is useless.

The difference is emotive language, based on your subjective experience.

Everything, EVERYTHING, you do in this game is subjective. Therefore, NOTHING you say is a fact.

Uby - "rapid"? Yes, there is that. There's also "overwhelmingly subjective". "Informed"? No, only what we PERSONALLY want from the game.

When 3 million players have 3 million opinions on what should be in the game, the mind simply boggles.

This new split system is only just beginning. Let's give it some time to see how it works.

Arkantos · May 22, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

An Opinion is: E-denial is useless.

It's not an opinion. It's actually useless in PvE, other than hardcore energy denial in farming. Enemies have a massive amount of energy and god knows how many pips of energy regen. Really, it's useless.

Quote:

This new split system is only just beginning. Let's give it some time to see how it works.

Don't mean to insult ANet, but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say don't get your hopes up on any update they make.

sph0nz · May 22, 2008, 12:28 AM // 00:28

This is stupid; pretty useless PvE buffs, especially Shadow Form. Ugh. I don't really like this update, but it's not terrible I guess. Also, I really don't see any problem with something like Assassin's Remedy being 10E for PvE as well as PvP. It's not as if that is going to actually matter in PvE.

Cathode_Reborn · May 22, 2008, 12:29 AM // 00:29

If a monster lived long enough to be competely E-denied, your team must be really really bad or using wand damage to kill stuff...

SerenitySilverstar · May 22, 2008, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Just because two people have the same opinion, still doesn't make it a fact.

Arkantos · May 22, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Just because two people have the same opinion, still doesn't make it a fact.

Let's look at the facts:

Monsters in PvE have a massive amount of energy
Monsters in PvE have quite a few pips of energy regen
Most energy denial skills make your opponent lose 10 or less energy

Seems useless to me. But please, if this is a mere opinion, prove me wrong.

SerenitySilverstar · May 22, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

I agree about monster set up Arkantos, but one skill does not a monster kill.

The Meth · May 22, 2008, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

A Fact is: The sky is blue
An Opinion is: E-denial is useless.
The difference is emotive language, based on your subjective experience.
Everything, EVERYTHING, you do in this game is subjective. Therefore, NOTHING you say is a fact.
Uby - "rapid"? Yes, there is that. There's also "overwhelmingly subjective". "Informed"? No, only what we PERSONALLY want from the game.
When 3 million players have 3 million opinions on what should be in the game, the mind simply boggles.
This new split system is only just beginning. Let's give it some time to see how it works.

Right. Give me your subjective experience in which you have found energy denial useful. Right now energy denial being useless is even more true then that the sky is blue (since it can assume multiple colors).

'Giving it some time to work' isn't what we want. Noone wants the hundreds of skills to have different PvE and PvP versions, that would be horribly complicated and impossible to figure out. We want a small amount of selected skills to have differences between PvE and PvP, ones in which the difference will produce a positive effect. Tell me how 20s vs 25s recharge on energy tap is positively effecting PvE? Its useless clutter and if further PvE changes are like this we will end up with every skill having different PvP and PvE differences just because we can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Just because two people have the same opinion, still doesn't make it a fact.

If there are no people that share any differing opinion's, then our opinion wins by default. If you want to give an example in which energy drain will somehow cause an enemy to lose all energy please present your case.

Ork Pride · May 22, 2008, 12:46 AM // 00:46

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing finally they separated the two.

SerenitySilverstar · May 22, 2008, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Right. Give me your subjective experience in which you have found energy denial useful.

Ok. I don't play an edenial mes, but I run a warrior build that includes "Fear Me". It doesn't kill the monster, but it does slow them down, which is more the intention of most skills.

Quote:

what we want. Noone wants

Quit talking for me, and everyone else. You have no idea what we want or don't want, outside of a select few opinions in one thread in one small community.

Quote:

horribly complicated and impossible to figure out.

The devs have recognized this, and are not making it complicated. The only thing complicating the issue is the human inability to move with change.

Quote:

Tell me how 20s vs 25s recharge on energy tap is positively effecting PvE?

With this skill, and any other, I don't know until I've tried it. As I said before, one skill does not kill a monster, or makes a build, or makes a team.

Quote:

If there are no people that share any differing opinion's, then our opinion wins by default.

That you think you have to "win" a discussion shows you really don't know how informed debate really goes.

Quote:

If you want to give an example in which energy drain will somehow cause an enemy to lose all energy please present your case.

There isn't, and I never said there was. Broken record, but...a skill is only part of a build and a team.

shoyon456 · May 22, 2008, 12:49 AM // 00:49

I know im going to get /flamed for this, but why no derv pve buffing with this new system?

Id expected Avatar of Melandru to change in some small way at least...